AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 21

[amc-list-request@xxxxxxx]

Send AMC-List mailing list submissions to
	amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	amc-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxx

You can reach the person managing the list at
	amc-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxx

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of AMC-List digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
      (Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM)
   2. AMC six ignition timing -- got it! (Tom Jennings)
   3. Re: I finally got it or whatever (JOE FULTON)
   4. Re: I finally got it or whatever (Tom Jennings)
   5. Re: Fuel Injecting the big dogs (Jim Blair)
   6. Blue light special HELP (Mark Price)
   7. Re: AMC six ignition timing -- got it! (Mark Price)
   8. Re; AMC 6 Ignition timing --Got It! (John Elle)
   9. Re: More AMC INk (Larry R. Daum)
  10. Re: Blue light special HELP (Russell Neyhart)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:33:13 -0600
From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
	<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big Dogs
To: <john.widiker@xxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
	<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313C976@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

The GEAR is the same, but I'm not sure about the depth. It doesn't help
a bit, but the lower body is the same as a late model Chevy I-6. To
convert to HEI you just use an AMC V-8 gear on the Chevy I-6 dizzy.
There you go, sacrifice a Chevy dizzy for a shaft bearing! 

-----------------
Date: Friday, December 8, 2006 01:18 PM
From: Widiker, John D <john.widiker@xxxxxxx>

Same depth and gear as the v-8?????

-----Original Message-----
" From: "Widiker, John D" <john.widiker@xxxxxxx> "
" (I'm cutting my old amc disty in half to only run the oil pump),

you could get one out of a '99-up 4.0 to do that.  they have
distributorless ign.




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:38:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] AMC six ignition timing -- got it!
To: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612081421460.5833@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Must be my lucky day. I figured I'd be at this all winter.

I now have 32 degrees total advance -- with vacuum disconnected
-- and no pinging under load.

I will later this weekend plot a graph of the mechanical advance
curve, but I got it road-tuned pretty close today.

I'm now running 12 degrees static advance, 20 degrees mechanical,
by fiddling springs got it to come in about 3200 rpm. That did
the trick.

It begins to ping under heavy load when the coolant temp gets
hot-normal, eg. curb idle right as the electric fans come on,
around 200 degrees. Then it will ping. As soon as it cools
down driving, doesn't ping. (My test strip is Route 2, Glendale
Freeway north of Broadway etc, up to the foothills; 50 - 90 mph.)

It runs up to 4000 rpm without misfiring/popping (which I think
was retard, before). It's hard to keep a heavy load on the engine
above 4000 as I'm going too fast for urban highways. (75mph in
2nd gear is about 4300.)



Now I have to really figure out coolant temps. I have
a Mr. Gasket 195 degree thermostat in there. I thought "195
degree" means it begins to open at 195. Or is it fully open
at 195? I'm confused -- in cool air, flat and level, 60 mph,
sealevel, the coolant temp settles to a steady 172F. If I let
it idle, with the fan thermostat set to 200F, it cycles 195,
205, 195, 205, ... with the fan.

I have a Mr. Gasket 180 degree, I may put that in, but I don't
want the steady-state temp to drop to 160 or whatever!




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:29:20 -0800 (PST)
From: JOE FULTON <piper_pa20@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I finally got it or whatever
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20061208232920.91871.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Tom,

Sorry for not quoting your subject correctly but I'm
on digest mode.  Didn't copy it correctly.

any Tom said:

Must be my lucky day. I figured I'd be at this all
winter.

I now have 32 degrees total advance -- with vacuum
disconnected
-- and no pinging under load.

I will later this weekend plot a graph of the
mechanical advance
curve, but I got it road-tuned pretty close today.

I'm now running 12 degrees static advance, 20 degrees
mechanical,
by fiddling springs got it to come in about 3200 rpm.
That did
the trick.

It begins to ping under heavy load when the coolant
temp gets
hot-normal, eg. curb idle right as the electric fans
come on,
around 200 degrees. Then it will ping. As soon as it
cools
down driving, doesn't ping. (My test strip is Route 2,
Glendale
Freeway north of Broadway etc, up to the foothills; 50
- 90 mph.)

It runs up to 4000 rpm without misfiring/popping
(which I think
was retard, before). It's hard to keep a heavy load on
the engine
above 4000 as I'm going too fast for urban highways.
(75mph in
2nd gear is about 4300.)

----------------
I haven't had be Gremlin with 258 2bbl out on the road
yet, but I'm thinking I will convert it to the GM HEI
ignition.  I have the distributor and Pertronix sells
a kit for it with high performance module and more
importantly with three sets of advance springs and
adjustable vacuum advance.  I'll keep you post and see
how your advance numbers work in my 258 when it gets
on the road, hopefully in a few weeks.

Regards,
Joe Fulton





------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 17:07:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] I finally got it or whatever
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612081704580.5833@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, JOE FULTON wrote:

> I haven't had be Gremlin with 258 2bbl out on the road
> yet, but I'm thinking I will convert it to the GM HEI
> ignition.  I have the distributor and Pertronix sells
> a kit for it with high performance module and more
> importantly with three sets of advance springs and
> adjustable vacuum advance.  I'll keep you post and see
> how your advance numbers work in my 258 when it gets
> on the road, hopefully in a few weeks.

I can't wait to hear about it -- I guess that's a better choice,
if new HEI six cyl distribs are available. Duraspark with the
TFI coil works as well supposedly, though the all-in-the-cap
sure is attractive.

I think I'll go look at (www) the Pertronix six HEI stuff
and see what's available...





------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:17:22 -0800
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big dogs
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <BAY114-F5CC08932DA1FC14517A1BACD20@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

A: My thought with the 196 was to get extra intake plates made and weld 
bungs in them so the ful injectors pointed at the intake valves. A minor bit 
of porting to allow room for the spray to get around the air streaming in 
(like the Renix "notch") and use smaller Ford injectors (like 4.6L V8 ones) 
and use Jeep system to run it. (I have a complete harness from a '90 XJ 4.0L 
I parted that I was going to use in my '84 J10, but I have decided to go to 
HO system for ease of wiring and dialling in the LPG EFI system)


From: "Swygert, Francis G MSgt 436 CES/CECM"
	<Francis.Swygert3@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Fuel Injecting the big dogs
To: <tomj@xxxxxxx>, <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:

<4CC05BF0CC3F114281434B00B733E2A313C6DF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Hmmm... just use a 1V (2.5L four) computer setup from a GM,
substitute
the YF for the stock TB. The GM 2.5L TB flows more than a YF
though. At
least the butterfly is a lot bigger. Just based on the butterfly
size
the GM 2.5L TB flows more than a Carter WCD 2V carb. The GM TB
is
something like 2.25" in diameter IIRC. It's been a long time
since I
toyed with the idea of using one on an AMC engine. It would work
well on
a bored out 1V intake and give a little more power than a BBD 2V
-- but
the main gain would be driveability. A long six really needs
injectors
at each port.

Someone (Jim?) mentioned figuring out how to inject a 196. The
1V TBI
would work great, but the side of the intake "trough" could be
directly
drilled and tapped for injectors. If the computer wouldn't
object only
four would be needed since cylinders 2-3 and 4-5 have siamesed
intake
ports. I wonder if one could just connect two sets of wires to
one
injector (with diodes to prevent feedback)? Those two injectors
would
get a lot more use than the other pair, but shouldn't be a
problem. With
a batch fire system it should work, sequential would depend on
how close
the siamesed injector cylinders are in the firing order. Of
course two
injectors could be installed side by side. This would work for
the
L-head too. Now that would be something -- a port injected
flat-head
six!!

There are Stromberg carb body based TBs out there now. One of
the hot
rod supply companies made them for two and three deuce setups on
flat-head Ford V-8s.

_________________________________________________________________
Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered 
by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:41:51 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Blue light special HELP
To: AMC List <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Strokers <strokers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,	"AMC-DelMarVA:
	yahoogroups.com" <AMC-DelMarVA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <5378457.1165635711935.JavaMail.root@web22>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I got a delemma of very minimal concern, but I can't decide what to do about it!
I've got a nice Sony head unit in my American, blue flourescent lite display and backlighting of switches. I tried sime of the blue 194 bulbs in the factory gauges and they are so darkly tinted I can barely see the qauges, this is with the factory green shields pulled out. I'm now in the process of doing a custom install of 6 Autometer Sport comp gauges. I need to either 
get different blue tinted 194 bulbs, 
Buy the blue covers from Autometer for clear 194 bulbs or 
use LEDs. 
I know LEDS won't dim, I don't care I run dash lights at full.
if I choose Leds, 
which ones?
Where do I buy them?

This may seem trivial, but it won't be easy for me to accomplish bulb changes after the final install, so I'd like to get this right!

On the stupidity side! I ended with two water temp gauges! :] DUH, got wrapped up in the whole eBay shopping experience and bought two of them! Anyone need a nice shiney new one???? 2 1/8" version!

Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:54:14 -0800
From: Mark Price <markprice242@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] AMC six ignition timing -- got it!
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <1165691.1165636454758.JavaMail.root@web22>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Congratulations. I know how good it feels to get something like timing to work right!
 I think the T-stat is supposed to open at 195*. full opening is quick it almost flips open IIRC. I would not change to the 180* except for the fact that the lower operating temp may kill your residual ping. You want to keep the engine temp up as close to the 190+ range for good economy. But since your carbed and it's an easy swap and you have one, I'd probably throw it in and see what happens.
  I run a 180* in my American's 4.0L. It seems to run at the 1/3 hot zone on the stock gauge and runs fine. NO ping at all, I had it in to keep engine temps down as my shortblock is a warranty pull for piston noise when hot, so I thought I'd keep it cooler and see what happened. I've never heard said piston noise and enjoy my "free" 4.0L greatly!
--
Mark Price
markprice242ATadelphia.net
Morgantown, WV


---- Tom Jennings <tomj@xxxxxxx> wrote: 
> Must be my lucky day. I figured I'd be at this all winter.
> 
> I now have 32 degrees total advance -- with vacuum disconnected
> -- and no pinging under load.
> 
> I will later this weekend plot a graph of the mechanical advance
> curve, but I got it road-tuned pretty close today.
> 
> I'm now running 12 degrees static advance, 20 degrees mechanical,
> by fiddling springs got it to come in about 3200 rpm. That did
> the trick.
> 
> It begins to ping under heavy load when the coolant temp gets
> hot-normal, eg. curb idle right as the electric fans come on,
> around 200 degrees. Then it will ping. As soon as it cools
> down driving, doesn't ping. (My test strip is Route 2, Glendale
> Freeway north of Broadway etc, up to the foothills; 50 - 90 mph.)
> 
> It runs up to 4000 rpm without misfiring/popping (which I think
> was retard, before). It's hard to keep a heavy load on the engine
> above 4000 as I'm going too fast for urban highways. (75mph in
> 2nd gear is about 4300.)
> 
> 
> 
> Now I have to really figure out coolant temps. I have
> a Mr. Gasket 195 degree thermostat in there. I thought "195
> degree" means it begins to open at 195. Or is it fully open
> at 195? I'm confused -- in cool air, flat and level, 60 mph,
> sealevel, the coolant temp settles to a steady 172F. If I let
> it idle, with the fan thermostat set to 200F, it cycles 195,
> 205, 195, 205, ... with the fan.
> 
> I have a Mr. Gasket 180 degree, I may put that in, but I don't
> want the steady-state temp to drop to 160 or whatever!
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
> 
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 23:10:12 -0700
From: "John Elle" <johnelle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [AMC-List] Re; AMC 6 Ignition timing --Got It!
To: <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000b01c71b58$b48b0470$54dc0d82@john1>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Tom and all
 
I thought it might be worth comparing to what the factory spec would be
for that year. Given of course that the engine is not a 1970 232 but the
Hornet is a 1970 and I have a 1970 TSM and that is the first year that
tune up specifications were considered in the light of smog criteria
which did make some differences and I loaned out my 1967 TSM and do not
have it back yet so!!!!!!!
 
Ignition timing chart, page 4-30
232 all transmissions
Initial timing @ 500 rpm w/vacuum hoses disconnected 3 =/- 1 BTDC
Maximum Degrees Advance @ 2000 RPM w/Vacuum hoses connected 33 degrees
=/- 4
Centrifugal Advance Engine RPM and Degrees, on the car. 232 I-6 
900rpm 4-6 Degrees
2100 rpm 16-20 degrees
Vacuum Advance Engine Degrees
232 I-6 Degrees Max Advance 22
 
Now the way I read this it seems to say that there is a possibility of a
maximum of 42 degrees advance available at 2100+rpm with 16 to 17 inches
of mercury at the vacuum can of the distributor. And of course as you
start pulling a load the vacuum advance will retard the spark at any
given rpm depending on the amount of load which translates into reduced
vacuum until you get down to zero at which point the only advance would
be mechanical and at 2100 rpm that would be 16 -20 degrees. 
Depending on the year of the car or the distributor, the recommended
vacuum source could be either ported vacuum or manifold vacuum, and it
just might be, depending on the year of the distributor the exact same
distributor for each source of vacuum leaving you with a distributor
that does not have as much vacuum advance available for use as ported
vacuum starts out at zero inches of mercury at idle rather than 17 or so
inches of mercury that manifold vacuum source does and then increases as
engine rpm thus air flow through the carburetor increases. With the
caveat that ported vacuum "can" be equal to but never greater than
intake manifold vacuum. It does have a tendency though to be self
limited to about 10 inches of mercury maximum under normal engine
operation. Using ported vacuum on a distributor that was originally
designed for intake manifold vacuum will cause the timing to run later
longer and that is good for smog criteria but bad for fuel economy and
over all performance. I believe in the very early years of smog tuned
engines that was the case. As to how far or how long that was done I do
not know as it has not been important to me to find out. Keep in mind
that much of the smog tuning though was done so to meet the 2 or 3 min.
warm up time that started when the engine was first started and then
through vacuum switching circuits were shut down and did not function
until the next cold start. At this time though many systems ran with
intake manifold vacuum to the distributor which would advance the timing
at idle to help keep the engine running, but when the engine warmed up
ported vacuum was switched to the distributor vacuum canister to run the
timing dynamically later. This caused increased heat of the combustion
chamber. Also the mechanism changed from year to year as the criteria
changed as did in some years different models had different criteria
there for different hook ups to make it work. For example in 1980 8
different configurations that could exist under the hood and this does
not include those Eagles that were smogged as light trucks for the state
of California or any 4 cylinder variations.  However one of the 1980
combinations uses a non-linear control valve that can supply as needed;
Full Manifold Vacuum
Ported Vacuum
And aprox. a 10 inches of mercury.
This gives a 3rd variation of controlled advance criteria.
 
So the question becomes, with Toms full mechanical advance, what is his
set up giving at 2100 rpm vs the factory spec for that year and engine
combination and what happens when the load becomes high enough to
require later or retarded timing and a rpm based advance can't supply
it?
 
Food for thought
 
Snip
 
I now have 32 degrees total advance -- with vacuum disconnected
-- and no pinging under load.
 
I will later this weekend plot a graph of the mechanical advance
curve, but I got it road-tuned pretty close today.
 
I'm now running 12 degrees static advance, 20 degrees mechanical,
by fiddling springs got it to come in about 3200 rpm. That did
the trick.
 
Snip
 
I too am interested in seeing what the advance curve looks like.
 
John. 
 


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 00:31:50 -0800
From: "Larry R. Daum" <mramc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] More AMC INk
To: mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20061209002846.02b63188@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

RE:More AMC INk

I got back from the books stores in Vegas with the latest copy of Hemmings 
Muscle Machines which has an 68 to 70 AMX buyers guide article. I don't go 
along with there pricing however. Pricing has pretty much gone past the 
$25,000 for a recently redone car. LRDaum




------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 05:08:20 -0500
From: Russell Neyhart <rtneyhart@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [AMC-List] Blue light special HELP
To: amc-list@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <457A8B14.8020205@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Good Morning Mark,

    You might try here: http://www.ledtronics.com/ds/AUT194/.  They have 
LED 194s in a variety of colors.  In the picture, the bulbs are in a 
trailer light where the light only needs to go to "one side", i.e. away 
from the trailer frame.  I'm not sure, but I would suspect that you need 
light that is omni-directional.  This may be a good place to start in 
any case.

Regards,

Russ from Pa.
1988 Eagle

P.S.: We're keeping the kids... if I can't get the seat belt issue 
resolved, there's always leather helmets, goggles, and scarves... hold 
on tight!

Mark Price wrote:
> I got a delemma of very minimal concern, but I can't decide what to do about it!
> I've got a nice Sony head unit in my American, blue flourescent lite display and backlighting of switches. I tried sime of the blue 194 bulbs in the factory gauges and they are so darkly tinted I can barely see the qauges, this is with the factory green shields pulled out. I'm now in the process of doing a custom install of 6 Autometer Sport comp gauges. I need to either 
> get different blue tinted 194 bulbs, 
> Buy the blue covers from Autometer for clear 194 bulbs or 
> use LEDs. 
> I know LEDS won't dim, I don't care I run dash lights at full.
> if I choose Leds, 
> which ones?
> Where do I buy them?
>
> This may seem trivial, but it won't be easy for me to accomplish bulb changes after the final install, so I'd like to get this right!
>
> On the stupidity side! I ended with two water temp gauges! :] DUH, got wrapped up in the whole eBay shopping experience and bought two of them! Anyone need a nice shiney new one???? 2 1/8" version!
>
> Mark Price
> markprice242ATadelphia.net
> Morgantown, WV
>
> _______________________________________________
> AMC-List mailing list
> AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list
>
> or go to http://www.amc-list.com
>
>   



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
AMC-List mailing list
AMC-List@xxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list


End of AMC-List Digest, Vol 11, Issue 21
****************************************